Creation literally

by Doug Mason in

i am very open to receiving thoughts that will help me develop this study:.

https://jwstudies.com/creation_literally.pdf .

doug.

Mac48

Doug,

You wrote: It is not valid to start with the Hebrew Scriptures as your authority until you can validate them as coming from a verifiable spirit world.

I have. In a number of ways.

You referred to: two distinct and contradictory Creation accounts...

Two distinct, yes. Two contradictory, no.

Not if we understand that Genesis chapter 1 tells us of God's creation of the heavens and the earth, including His creation of the human race. And that Genesis chapter two tells us of God's creation of Adam and Eve long after His creation of the human race.

19

Creation literally

by Doug Mason in

i am very open to receiving thoughts that will help me develop this study:.

https://jwstudies.com/creation_literally.pdf .

doug.

Mac48

Doug,

You wrote, "Because the sky was solid, this meant that the sun, moon, and stars -- which were created later than earth, and later than light -- were located beneath the solid sky. Otherwise, they could not be seen, nor could they illuminate the earth."

I disagree. I understand that the creation account recorded by the author of Genesis chapter 1 was as he saw things in a vision given to him by God, from the perspective of an earth-bound observer, soon after "God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1) For Genesis 1:2 tells us that the earth was then "formless and empty" and "darkness was" then "over the surface of the" earth's "deep" global ocean, as "the Spirit of God was" then "hovering over the waters."

This is exactly how scientists now tell us that the earth would have appeared from its surface 4.3 billion years ago, as "thick clouds of earth's early atmosphere blocked sunlight and darkened its water-covered surface." (See The History of Earth - An Illustrated Chronicle of An Evolving Planet, 1991, page 65)

Yes, Genesis 1:3 does tell us that God made "light on "Day" one, which was during the same creative time period that He "created the heavens and the earth." This time period began with the "Big Bang" about 13.7 billion years ago, which was over 9 billion years before our Sun, Earth, and Moon came into existence. However, no sunlight, moonlight, or starlight would have then been able to be seen from the surface of the dark water-covered Earth 4.3 billion years ago. For scientists tell us that its skies were then completely filled with dark clouds, largely made up of volcanic smoke and ash.

So far as your contention that Genesis tells us that God created light before He created the Sun, moon, and stars, I disagree. I contend that when Genesis 1:14-16 tells us that God "made" the Sun, Moon, and the stars on the 4th creative "day," it is not telling us that God then "created" these heavenly bodies. Rather, it is telling us that God then “made” them appear in Earth’s skies for the first time, about “4.2 billion years ago.” For scientists tell us that even though Earth's thick steamy atmosphere had cleared by condensing into rain about 4.4 billion years ago, the Sun, Moon, and stars would not have then been visible to any Earth-bound observer. For Earth’s dense largely CO2 atmosphere would have then allowed only a very unclear view of the Sun, Moon, and stars from Earth's surface. And they tell us Earth did not develop a fully transparent atmosphere for another 3.5 billion years, after plant life fully changed it, replacing most of its hazy CO2 with clear oxygen. (See The History Of Earth – An Illustrated Chronicle Of An Evolving Planet, pages 66 – 73.) So I understand that God "made" the Sun, Moon, and the stars begin to appear in earth's skies 4.2 billion years ago and that He "made" them become fully visible to all Earth-bound observers about 700 million years ago.

In this regard, it is important to here note that Genesis 1:16 uses the Hebrew verb "asa" in reference to the Sun, Moon, and stars being "made" by God on the “fourth day" of creation. And Hebrew lexicons tell us that "asa" does not connote "the absolute newness of the object" that has been made, as does the Hebrew verb "bara" used elsewhere in Genesis chapter one. Rather, we are told that "asa" primarily refers to "the fashioning of" pre-existing materials. This being so, we can understand that the writer of Genesis was in this passage of Scripture telling us that God caused the pre-existing Sun, Moon and stars to first become visible from the Earth's surface during this 4th “day” of creation. The writer of Genesis used the Hebrew word for "create," “bara,” only when he described God's bringing into existence, “the heavens and earth,” life in the sea, and mankind. (Genesis 1:1, 21, 27) See Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 1980, Moody Press, Volume 2, page 701.

19

Creation literally

by Doug Mason in

i am very open to receiving thoughts that will help me develop this study:.

https://jwstudies.com/creation_literally.pdf .

doug.

Mac48

Ever,

I understand how you feel. That is exactly how I felt several years ago. My bad experiences with JWs nearly turned me into an atheist. I was an agnostic for a few years anyway. But I kept an open mind about the existence of God and even about His inspiration of the Bible, believing that maybe the JWs and most other so-called Christian religions misunderstand much of it. You say you will now only believe if you are now presented with some pretty miraculous evidence. That's pretty much how I felt. Then I came across some very compelling evidence that the God of the Bible must have created our universe. I will share this evidence with you privately if you tell me your mind is open on this subject matter and you would like to see it. (I say "privately" for reasons I will explain privately.) Otherwise, I will not do so. For I know that no evidence is ever strong enough to convince someone of something they are not willing to believe.

19

Creation literally

by Doug Mason in

i am very open to receiving thoughts that will help me develop this study:.

https://jwstudies.com/creation_literally.pdf .

doug.

Mac48

Again, those who tell us that Adam and Eve died because their sin caused them to become mortals need to explain why God said they would live forever after they disobeyed Him if He allowed them to eat from, or continue eating from, the tree of life. And they need to explain why, "after He drove the man out [of the garden], He placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

For as Genesis 3:22-24 tells us, "And the Lord God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.’ So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

19

Creation literally

by Doug Mason in

i am very open to receiving thoughts that will help me develop this study:.

https://jwstudies.com/creation_literally.pdf .

doug.

Mac48

Ever, You also wrote: Its only Adam and eve that sinned and hence they died.

I disagree.

The book of Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve were created by God as mortal people with a dying nature just like us. The Bible makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree “in the middle of the garden” of Eden, “the Tree of Life.” (Genesis 2:9)

Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were going to be given continued access to its fruit only if they passed a God-given test, a test which we are told they both failed. After failing that test God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden of Eden and prevented them from ever again eating from “the Tree of Life.” Genesis also tells us that had Adam and Eve been allowed to continue eating from that tree their lives would have been prolonged indefinitely, even after they had sinned. (Genesis 3:22-24) So we know that it was not their disobedience to God that changed them into people like us who naturally die. For it was only when God prevented them from eating from “the Tree of Life” that they began to die what were apparently natural deaths. A careful reading of the Genesis account shows that living forever would have been just as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us.

Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by Him in order to make them and their descendants mortals. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from a source outside of themselves, “the Tree of Life." That "Tree of Life" was meant to picture Jesus Christ and the free gift of eternal life which He will give to all who follow Him. (Matthew 19:29; 25:46; John 3:16; 6:40; 17:3; Revelation 2:7)

The Bible tells us that God was going to give Adam and Eve eternal life from an outside source, “the Tree of Life,” only if they passed a very simple test. The Bible also says that God will give all of us eternal life from an outside source, Jesus Christ, if we pass a very simple test. That test is to simply believe in our hearts that Jesus Christ's death was sufficient payment to buy all mankind God's forgiveness for all of our sins, and then begin serving Him as our Lord.

As I noted earlier, I understand that Adam and Eve’s nakedness in Eden was meant to picture their sinful and shameful condition before God, even before their disobedience to Him. Adam and Eve’s failure to see themselves as being naked before they had committed a very blatant act of sin pictured their failure to recognize the fact that they were sinful people even before they disobeyed God. We are told that it was only after they did so that they realized they were naked, felt ashamed of their condition, tried to cover their nakedness and tried to hide from God. Why? Because it was only then that they felt unworthy to stand in God’s presence. However, Adam and Eve’s nakedness before their disobedience showed that they were just as unworthy to stand in front of their perfectly righteous God prior to their act of disobedience as they were afterwards. They just didn’t realize it.

Adam and Eve’s feelings and behavior in this regard were meant to picture the way we often become ashamed of ourselves after committing what we consider to be a “very serious” sin. For it is usually only then that we feel like hiding ourselves from God. At such times we often do things like stop praying to God or stop attending church services because we feel ashamed of what we have done and feel unworthy to be in His presence. Adam and Eve’s nakedness in Eden, and their failure to see themselves as naked before they disobeyed God, was meant to picture the fact that we are all just as unworthy to stand in the presence of our Most Holy God before we commit any “serious” sin as we are after we have done so. We just don’t realize it.

Besides their nakedness, another element of the Bible’s story of Adam and Eve which was meant to inform us that they were sinful people before they ever disobeyed God’s command is that Satan spoke to Eve through a snake. To begin with, this seems to make no sense to many Bible readers. If Satan wanted to deceive Eve why would he have chosen to talk to her through a snake? Wouldn’t a better choice have been a harmless looking deer, lamb or bunny rabbit? Or better yet, why did Satan not appear to her as “an angel of light,” since the Bible tells us that is how he often appears? (2 Corinthians 11:14) Why did God see to it that Satan would speak to Eve through a snake? The answer to this question can be found in Numbers 21:6-9 and John 3:14-15.

In Numbers 21:6-9 we are told that during the time the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness, before being allowed to enter their promised land, “They spoke against God and against Moses,” complaining about their living conditions. Then we find that “The Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.” The Bible tells us that the people then asked for God’s forgiveness for speaking against both Him and Moses. After they did so, “The Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.’ So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.” In John 3:14-15 we find that Jesus said, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.” Jesus was saying that the replica of a snake which Moses attached to a pole and lifted up in the wilderness was intended to point to the time when He would be nailed to the Cross. But why did God use a snake to picture the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ? He did so because that snake raised up by Moses on a pole was meant to represent the Israelites’ sin. God said He would forgive their sin, provided they would acknowledge it in the way He told them they must do, by looking upon it as a snake nailed to a pole.

Clearly, the snake which Moses nailed to that pole and then raised up in the wilderness was intended by God to picture the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. For at that time Jesus Christ took all of our sins upon Himself, in order to pay for them with His life. The Bible tells us in 2 Corinthians 5:21 that when Jesus Christ was nailed to the Cross, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us.” So that snake nailed to the pole which Moses raised up for the snake-bitten Israelites to look upon did not picture our sinless Lord. That bronze snake pictured the sin of all mankind which Jesus Christ took upon Himself, as our sin was nailed to His Cross.

So by reading Numbers 21:6-9 and John 3:14-15 we can see that God long ago used a snake to represent sin and mankind’s need for God’s forgiveness. It was for this reason that God saw to it that Satan spoke through a snake. For He intended for the events in Eden to serve as a demonstration in which He used Adam and Eve as representatives of the human race. In that demonstration He used a snake to represent Adam and Eve’s sinful condition and their need for His forgiveness, even before they disobeyed Him. We can see this because that snake was with Adam and Eve in their garden home even before they there disobeyed God.

In confirmation of this understanding, I think it is worthwhile to here note that when Satan spoke to Jesus Christ in the wilderness he did not speak to Him through a serpent, even though there were probably many there. For, as I have here shown, the Bible uses snakes to represent sin, and the sinful condition of the ones looking upon them. And the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ was without sin. (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22)

19

Creation literally

by Doug Mason in

i am very open to receiving thoughts that will help me develop this study:.

https://jwstudies.com/creation_literally.pdf .

doug.

Mac48

Ever, You wrote: These Pre-Adam [and] Eve people and their descendants should all be alive today.

They are us.

Few people now alive are descendants of Adam and Eve. The Bible contains a greatly detailed chronological record that tells us that God created Adam only 4,000 years before the birth of Christ. However, scientists assure us that this planet has been populated with members of the human race for at least 200,000 years, and maybe as long as 400,000 years. So, as I said, this means that God created Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:7-22) long after He created the human race (Genesis 1:26-27) and that He staged the events in Eden as a demonstration of our sinful nature, and our need for His forgiveness. It also means that the doctrines of the "fall of man" and "original sin" are misunderstandings of the Scriptures. Long story.

19

Creation literally

by Doug Mason in

i am very open to receiving thoughts that will help me develop this study:.

https://jwstudies.com/creation_literally.pdf .

doug.

Mac48

You first need to understand that the Bible does not present Adam and Eve as literally the first two people who ever lived. For it informs us that God created the human race (Genesis 1:26-27) long before He created Adam and Eve. (Genesis 2:7-22) And it tells us that their son Cain found his wife in "the land of Nod," which then existed "east of Eden." (Genesis 4:16-17) This means that God staged the events in Eden as a demonstration of the sinful nature of all mankind, and our need for His forgiveness. For if Adam and Eve in paradise, without problems of any kind, were unable to obey one very simple command from God, what chance does any of us have, in far more difficult circumstances, of living a perfectly righteous life and by so doing prove him or herself worthy of eternal life? No chance at all. This means that Adam and Eve’s nakedness in Eden did not represent their innocence. It represented their shameful condition before God as sinful people, just as nakedness does everywhere else it is portrayed in the Bible. See, for instance, the next time it is there portrayed in Genesis 9:20-23, where Noah’s nakedness is associated with the sinful behavior of drunkenness.

26

Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason in

in its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.

it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.

Mac48

Right. Jesus said that when He "separates the sheep from the goats" He will do so on the basis of how much love we showed for "the least of" Christ's "brothers" in practical ways. (Matthew 25:31-46) Sadly, the Watchtower's leaders tell us this means how well we treated them.

26

Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason in

in its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.

it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.

Mac48

Doug,

You wrote: I do not care what any individual JW believes. As long as their belief causes no actual harm to themselves or to anyone else ...

The problem is their beliefs do cause harm to themselves and others in many ways. For one thing, their disfellowshipping practice destroys families. Over the years millions of people have been badly hurt by JWs who follow their leaders' instructions to shun members of their own family for the rest of their lives for committing the terrible sins of celebrating their childrens' birthdays or questioning some of the Watchtower's highly questionable teachings on things such as its own God-given authority over their lives and when Jerusalem was destroyed. How many of their lives have been greatly harmed by the WTS refusing to allow them to obtain a higher education? I could here list many other ways that being a JW hurts people. JWs are enslaved to the WTS in a way that hurts both themselves and others. And when I see people in slavery I want to help set them free, even if they do not realize how much their slavery is hurting themselves and others.

26

Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason in

in its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.

it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.

Mac48

Doug,

You asked: Why did Daniel write in two different languages?

Daniel was taken captive as a youth and appears to have served as an official of the Babylonian/Persian government for about 70 years. As I noted earlier, as a Babylonian he is known to have reckoned the reigns of kings using the Babylonian accession year system of reckoning while using Babylon’s calendar which began in the spring. (Judean Bible writers counted the reigns of its kings using their civil calendar that began in the fall.) Because Daniel lived and worked as a Babylonian for so long he often wrote in the Aramaic language, the language of the Babylonians. From the beginning of his book through Daniel 2:3 he wrote in Hebrew. In Daniel 2:4 he switched to Aramaic, and used that language through the end of chapter 7. This may have been because this part of his book dealt primarily with non-Jewish matters. Beginning in chapter 8, the rest of his book was written in Hebrew again, possibly because the focus of the last 5 chapters is mainly on Israel.

You asked: Which Bible do you believe in?

I believe in the Protestant Christian Bible which contains a collection of 70 books. Although this Bible is most often said to contain “66 books,” it is actually a collection of 70 books. For the Bible’s book of Psalms was originally written and compiled as five separate books, and it remains so divided in almost all Bibles today. (“Book 1” is made up of chapters 1-41, “Book 2” contains chapters 42-72, “Book 3” includes chapters 73-89, “Book 4” has chapters 90-106, and “Book 5” contains chapters 107-150.) So, with the five books of Psalms, together with the Bible’s other sixty-five books, the Bible contains a total of 70 books. (The books of the Apocrypha now found in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, and which were also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, aka the LXX, were never in any Hebrew Bible.) The Bible often uses the number 70 to refer to things that are perfect and spiritually complete. So, whenever someone tells us that we need to read their new so-called “holy book” we can confidently reply that our Bible is perfectly complete and that it contains everything about God and from God that we need to know. I understand that this 70 book count also shows that most other extra-biblical written works, which some people claim were supernaturally inspired by God, were actually written by false prophets and false teachers. These include all of the so-called “holy books” of non-Christian religions, such as Islam’s Quran, as well as all such books which have been written by people claiming to be followers of Jesus Christ, such as Joseph Smith of the Mormons, Ellen G. White of the Seventh Day Adventists, and Mary Baker Eddy of the Christian Scientists. By making our Bible a collection of 70 books I believe God intended to inform us that it contains everything we need to know in order for us to receive both His forgiveness for our sins and His gift of eternal life.

Mac48

Posts by Mac48